CREATINAAAAA! What I don't like about Giratina(-O) - Part 1 exploration of DPP Ubers spinblockers

 

So I've been kind of teasing this entry for a while now and I've finally got my ass off the seat to write about it. If you hang around DPP Ubers circles these days you'd probably see me trash Giratina-O every so often like I trash Ekiller in other gens. Am I just trolling?

The answer to that is absolutely yes. I have to add the disclaimer that I still absolutely respect Giratina-O's place in the DPP Ubers metagame and what it adds to a lot of teams. That being said, like what I do with Ekiller, I exaggerate my disdain for it when it gets glazed (although a lot of the time Gira-O is not getting glazed and I'm pushing my frustrations at it after certain unimpressed turns of Pokemon). I will get into Gira-A closer to the end too but this is more about Gira-O, and part 2 would be detailing my quest to find replacements for Gira-O on teams where it doesn't fit as well (spoiler alert - there aren't any good replacements but some very niche ones that could be interesting options to spice your teams up a bit from time to time).

So start off with, if you know how I play DPP Ubers, you know I tend to play very aggressively, favouring HO and offense in general. I hardly stall, and can play balance and absolutely have no qualms using Gira-O on balance or even bulky offense teams. This should set the background on what kind of pace I like to play DPP Ubers. You will also frequently see me trashing on things like Bronzong and SpD Jirachi because they tend to drop momentum really easily for offense teams.

Because of the pace I like to play DPP Ubers, there are sometimes very specific things I need for a team, which unfortunately nothing in the tier can fill. Basically, with the hazard stacking metagame, I'd like to have ideally a spinblocker that can constantly force the issue. Giratina-O is the Ghost-type that is ideal for offense teams, but unfortunately slows the pace down often.

So let's first talk about what makes Gira-O great. Here are some of its standard sets:

CREATINAAAA (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb  

Ability: Levitate  

EVs: 64 Atk / 200 Def / 184 SpA / 60 Spe  

Rash Nature  

- Draco Meteor  

- Outrage

- Shadow Sneak  

- Thunder

The standard mixed Giratina-O works as an excellent tank. Its ability to take a lot of physical hits, and even some special ones and KO back frailer threats is probably matched only by Dialga in that regard. This makes it a very versatile Pokemon that can fit on most teams. What it does lack however, is enough power to really break stall and the ability to constantly force an opponent to be on the defensive. The first point about stall is that Gira-O has issues with breaking down the really major walls on stall like Cresselia and even can lose to Blissey if they spam Softboiled on your Outrage and you confuse yourself in between.

The second point about momentum that while it's decent at pulling back a runaway sweeper like Groudon, it loses said momentum straight after that. The problem with Gira-O is that there is absolutely no way of increasing its speed outside of Baton Passing to it, or using Tailwind (which Gira-O can learn) that only lasts 3 turns (including set up turn) in DPP. Compounding this, is that Gira-O is weak to Dragons, so the Draco spamming metagame of DPP gives it no favours. It's also weak to Darkrai which also doesn't help. I'll go into this problem a bit more a bit later, but hold onto this thought for now.

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb  

Ability: Levitate  

EVs: 200 Def / 248 SpA / 60 Spe  

Modest Nature  

IVs: 0 Atk  

- Calm Mind  

- Dragon Pulse  

- Thunder  

- Substitute

This set trades most of Gira-O's utility but gives you a much better ability to stall break. The idea behind this set is that you Sub on Blissey who's generally Stall's main way of stomaching boosted special hits. Using Eclipse as an example, this set essentially forces the Eclipse team to trade their Latias/Dialga/Mewtwo for this, and as a result lets you get to take advantage. If you have Hwish support you might even be able to pull it off twice.

The main issue with this set is basically that you're all in on stallbreaking that you're sacrificing Gira-O's ability to do other things like revenge killing frail things. You can still defend against things like Groudon. Also for all its stallbreaking potential, it's still slow and so you can't easily sweep faster teams.

There are also other sets around the place, like physically offensive (not common since you're even harder pressed to damage Forretress), as well as Seldanna's funky CM/Dpulse/Rest/Sneak set, but the common thread is that these are still tanky sets that aren't super fast paced.

I'll go through the main Gira-A sets a bit faster since they're even less conducive to the fast paced teams that I like. That being said, with less Forretress running Payback it might be a decent time to pull out this set:

Giratina @ Salac Berry  

Ability: Pressure  

EVs: 60 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 192 Spe  

Modest Nature  

IVs: 0 Atk  

- Substitute  

- Calm Mind  

- Dragon Pulse  

- Thunder / Hidden Power Fire

Maybe?! It's a bit fishy, but it's like the only way a Giratina forme can gain speed - this lets you outspeed Mewtwo after Salac boost, but that being said, it's pretty easy to revenge kill still - Shadow Sneak and any decent faster Scarfer can take this out.

SubCM/Protect is quite progress making against the right team, but you need quite a bit of support for it, and it doesn't work on super fast paced HO unfortunately. The fat RestTalk sets don't work for obvious reasons.

So what are my problems with the Giratina formes? The main one as mentioned, is the fact that they do slow the pace of a game down. While they are great at checking big threats like RP Groudon, they struggle to generate momentum on their own. Once you get a kill (or even fail to get one because its power is often overestimated), you'll stare down the barrel of something like a Dialga, Palkia, Rayquaza, Latios, Garchomp for which they will force a dent out of anything unless you have a fat Steel-type, or a Darkrai which will force you to take sleep on something.

This is where part 2 of the problem comes in - the things that defensively synergise well with Giratina(-O) exacerbate the problem. What are good at switching into big Dragon-type moves? Fat Steel-types like Bronzong, SpD Jirachi, Forretress and Blissey if it's for the special ones. The only way to sponge a big Dragon move and then try and pry momentum back quickly is to run an offensive Steel, which unfortunately there aren't any DPP that are particularly good. Your options are Scarf Jirachi (which is kind of weak but has nice applications like Hwish, Iron Head shenanigans and revenging DD Ray), Lucario (which is bad at even tanking -2 Draco Meteor and is kind of weak), as well as Scizor and Metagross (2 mons that I have recently warmed up to but it seems the community still highly disrespects). I feel Scizor is probably the only one where you can switch in on Draco Meteor (usually badly), and then if coinflip right you might be able to U-turn out while you threaten a strong Bullet Punch to something that doesn't like to take (like Latias) or something you don't mind taking another weaker Draco from (like Scarf Dialga). As such, you have a bit of a double effect - Giratina-O isn't enough to keep momentum in your favour except after a single turn, and the Steel-types that synergise well with it sink your momentum even further. Again, SubCM Gira-O can force the issue however it can only really do this against hard stall and has big problems of its own (eg needing to get to like +3 before even being able to do enough to to really hurt Bronzong).

So far, I really haven't found a good answer to this (having a spinblocker that can actually keep a fast pace) and I'm not sure if I will ever find on in the confines of DPP Ubers. If you look to something like BW, while there aren't really many extra Ghosts (Arceus-Ghost is the main one, which I'll talking about in a bit), the Steel-types are much better - you have Genesect that can tank 1 Draco Meteor and immediately pivot out (which sometimes is enough), Ferrothorn that while it slows the game down, if it was transplanted into DPP where it has old-school Explosion, I'd be running silly things like Custap boom so it can still be fast paced, as well as stuff like Cobalion that can take 1 hit and pivot too. Excadrill is also a huge Steel-type that unlike the DPP counterparts is actually amazing. The Sturdy buff + Custap combo helps too.

As for Ghostceus, does that improve my predicament? The answer is slightly. Ghostceus in DPP unfortunately is not that good of an offensive threat. The support set is actually really good and definitely something I underestimated back when Farceus was first unbanned in 2020, but the offensive sets are usable but underwhelming in my experience. CM struggles with power, has troubles with Blissey and Steel-types in general (unless you have sun up and Fire Blast), and SD is probably my go to on HO but is still very clunky to use. I generally just use SD/Shadow Force/Brick Break/Extreme Speed since that's the only set that can really pose much of a threat to pretty much anything.

I know this has a clunky discussion on why I find the Giratina formes lacking. Are there any other Ghosts in DPP Ubers that are worth exploring then? Stay tuned for Part 2 where I go over some potential ideas :O