Anti-"Lead Kyogre" openings
So initially I was going to try and take the first step in reigniting my attempt to do a Farceus PR post by doing section 1 where I go through the shambolic 2020 vote. The plan was to do it in sections over multiple blogs, and once I have enough material I can post it to PR.
Unfortunately, the last few weeks has just been a rollercoaster emotionally/mentally and I'm only just getting better now so I've had no motivation to write about Farceus. #iykyk
Anyway I'm sort of back, I'll do something relatively quick. I think I'll finally do a bit of a trashpost on lead Ogre like what I did with Giratina-O. Again, like Gira-O, I absolutely respect what Kyogre can do as a lead and it definitely has a place in the lead metagame, it just has some serious issues that you have to be careful of and is not as easy to just slap onto something as you might think.
Anyway - let's talk about the good things about lead Ogre first. Firstly, it has multiple sets it can run so it's versatile and depending on your lead, you may just have to accept that you might lose to it (eg Darkrai lead). Secondly, it's a very stable-ish attacking lead, so while it matches up badly against a lot of the pure hazard leads (we'll talk about those in a sec), it 1v1's pretty much every attacking lead because it's a bulky water that pretty much can't be OHKOed by anything viable while you're likely to KO them in return.
Lead Kyogre sets:
Kyogre @ Lum Berry / Wacan Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SpA / 112 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
The most standard lead which is pretty much designed to tank everything and KO back. That being said I think this one probably has the least value outside of being a lead. If you have a team that's not too rain based and feel like you need something to just attack from the get-go, it's okay.
Kyogre @ Lum Berry / Leftovers / Wacan Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 96 HP / 124 Def / 176 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
This set has much better midgame value and is just a bit more threatening in general since you can just threaten to set up and take as many lives as possible if they get too greedy with hazards. It still works really well in the midgame to force progress too.
Kyogre @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
Personally I think this is my favourite Ogre lead set and tip if you see me using lead Ogre it's probably going to be Specs. The best part of this set is that you put immediate pressure on Eclipse because they traditionally lead Forretress and if there's no Latias at that back you're going to smash a couple of holes immediately. It's also the only Kyogre set that can OHKO Passho Ho-oh, so if that's their way of trying to bait a Kyogre at the start of the game and relatively lacking Ogre checks later on in the game then you're just going to smash through it immediately and win very quickly.
Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
I actually hate using ScarfOgre as a lead. It pretty much has all of the bad things about Ogre leads (see below) and really doesn't add too much more to start with. You're either going to be coming up against Sash leads which will either just rack up hazards (Deo-S), do a lot of damage to you and as such cripple your ability to speed control you later in the game (Deo-A, Ray, Darkrai, the opening traps that you'll see below), and you don't punish Ogre switch-ins as much so you lose momentum quickly (eg SpD Dialga or Blissey switching in). That being said, I do use Scarf Ogre at times, mainly when there's like nothing else that can lead, or to try and position against a worse lead matchup - eg leading ScarfOgre instead of Forretress because of the awful SpecsOgre lead MU.
Kyogre @ Wacan Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Icy Wind
- Thunder
This set was way more popular back in 2022 but has faded away in the last few years. Lum Berry was the more common item back then so you can still beat Darkrai, but I think in current meta, if you want to use this it's probably better to use Wacan so you can beat Deo-A that normally beat you.
Now that we've got the good things out of the way, lets talk lead Kyogre problems. The main problem to me is still the fact that you're basically guaranteeing that you're taking 2 layers of hazards against Sash Deo-S. I know the community doesn't respect Sash Deo-S very much but I think this is a mistake which I'll never get behind.
The other problem with Ogre leads is that there are just so many different ways to punish it now. There are dedicated teams and sets now that specifically punish Kyogre leads, and while yes that is a testament to Kyogre being an incredibly important lead, it's also a reason to start adapting back or just get punished. This is especially true if your team has Swift Swimmers or some rain dependent strats because these lead Ogre traps/poor MUs will just cripple the rest of your team straight away. The thing about Kyogre is that it's too valuable of Pokemon most of the time to be risking in the lead position. It's almost like going on an early queen attack in chess, just very easily punishable. If you have a relatively rain dependent team it's definitely better to keep Kyogre at the back right now, I think.
So shit that fucks up Kyogre leads:
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Extreme Speed
- Taunt
So won't elaborate on this because we all know what the problem is - having 2 layers up for free with a Kyogre against a Wobbray or sun HO is just not fun at all. Your best bet is like Twave on Deo-S and then try to force the issue with Calm Mind, or just trade the Ogre for as much as you can, but Don -> Wobb and stuff like will minimise that damage and you have to play down 2 layers as soon as turn 3.
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Coat
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt
Let me be absolutely clear that I absolutely detest this set. The idea is that you suicide the Deo-S to bring down a Kyogre lead so theoretically your Eclipse/Ho-oh/sun dependent team has free weather afterwards but like... what if their Kyogre is not lead because they actually respect Deo-S? What if they just Twave you because they're actually Twave/CM? The other problem with this is that Sash Deo-S is already Kyogre's daddy - just get your 2 layers up and enjoy that big advantage. For something like this you'll potentially just end up with no hazards because they're definitely going Gira-O to Sneak you the next turn, which is just like... why the hell are you using Deo-S in the first place?!
Regardless, this set absolutely fucks up Kyogre leads and if you get slapped with this and you have like Thunder on everything you can pretty much just kiss the game goodbye because you can be sure that they're either going to be Eclipse coming up or even worse, nasty back Ho-oh shenanigans which you'll struggle heavily to kill. That being said, now that Twave/CM is pretty common too they can shut that down okay. The issue is that you don't know what Deo-S is running so you really want to attack it, although if you're Twave then it's probably okay.
Forretress @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 76 Atk / 160 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Explosion
This here, is possibly the nastiest anti-Ogre lead mon I've ever seen and is the reason that I've gone from memeing on lead Ogre to actively discouraging its use - credits to Yellow Armchair who came up with it. The reason why this is so potent is because even if you're clued in on the possibility of Boom Forry lead, you can't really scout for Explosion because you never know if the Forretress you see on turn 1 is just a standard Forry lead that's on something like Eclipse, a Sash Forry lead that's there to set up hazards only (maybe on Eclipse) or this Forry that's there to bait your lead Ogre. If it's the first 2 options, then you just gave them extra hazards which lead Ogre BOs absolutely hates, so your only real good option is to attack. Once the Forretress blows up, it's generally followed by sun BO with RP Don/back Ho-oh and with Ogre gone most lead Ogre BOs will not have a good time against that matchup at all.
Deoxys-Attack @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball / Signal Beam
- Extreme Speed
- Spikes
Standard Deo-A lead is the standard go-to lead for HO if you want to thoroughly destroy Kyogre leads in general, the only for Kyogre to be neutral against Deo-A is to use Wacan, and even then if you use a slow Wacan set they can just threaten to 2HKO you or at very least set up a layer of Spikes and get a good amount (like 30-40%) of chip. The only Wacan set that actually 1v1s Deo-A is the Icy Wind set. With standard bulky Ogres lead, you are surrendering most of Kyogre's HP and a layer of Spikes or at minimum, or they can straight up 2HKO you.
Ho-Oh @ Passho Berry
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk
Ho-Oh @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird
- Earthquake
- Sleep Talk
Let me just be clear that Ho-oh is not a solid anti-Kyogre lead by any means. That being said, depending on the set it can cause a lot of problems because it's just a lot of early game damage that you might not be able to recover from easily. Passho Ho-oh severely chips or beats pretty much every non-Specs Ogre lead, while Jolly CB will put like ~80% dent in a fat Kyogre which is hard to come back from.
These next 2 sets are basically things that only I use, but can also just manhandle Kyogre leads and put you in a bad position.
Metagross @ Focus Sash
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Explosion
- Bullet Punch
I've written an entire blog about Metagross lately so not going to elaborate -> see my Metagross blog
Heracross (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide
- Vacuum Wave
This is a fun lead which I haven't brought to a tour game yet but was not bad in the tests I had. The basic premise is that you're OHKOing pretty much every Deo-S variant (with Vacuum Wave to finish off Sash ones), and you're not doing too badly against some other leads. You do really well vs Kyogre too, either you outspeed and 2HKO with Megahorn, or you get outspeed and brought down to Sash to activate Swam and OHKO with Megahorn in return.
Other leads that Kyogre can't stop what they normally do: Froslass, Tentacruel, Dialga
Other leads that Kyogre can 1v1 but would not enjoy the added damage: Sash Ray (actually beats Kyogre if it has both Draco and Outrage), Giratina-O
So with all of that, my position is basically that if you're leading Kyogre these days you should be totally be ready for it to be lost in the lead position (eg some bulky offense team without much rain dependence or like with a Double Dance Don at the back or something). Otherwise, I'd avoid leading Kyogre in the current metagame.
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